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Wien bridge oscillator, diode stabilized, inconsistent ampli

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Wien bridge oscillator, diode stabilized, inconsistent ampli

Postby Sorin Popa » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:10 am

I am building a wien bridge oscillator using an LMV751 opa with an output frequency of 20khz.

Image

The breadboard version of the circuit above works perfectly, the output voltage is around 400mV pp at 20kHz. The breadboard version uses the SMD version of the LMV751 on a breakout board, and 1N4148 diodes.



The SMD version of the circuit is constructed exactly the same, with the only difference that it uses BAS16 diodes. However, a version was tested where 1N4148 diodes were soldered to the board instead.



Both circuits are completely isolated from any other components, and tested using the same power supply, which outputs 3.1V for Vcc, 1.52V Vcc/2.



The issue is that the SMD version has a much higher amplitude of 2Vpp, although it oscillates at extacly 20kHz also. The circuit was tested with two LMV751 chips incase it was a chip defect.



As you can see in the pictures, the breadboard version takes much longer to start oscillating than the SMD version.

Image
Breadboard version at startup

Image
PCB version at startup (NOTE: frequency is the same as the previous image, it appears lower due to aliasing on the scope screen) Also, the circuits were analyzed again using exactly the same input voltage and the results were the same, I just didn't take a picture.


The circuits were build from scratch again and checked over multiple times for any error or difference between them. All passive components (0.1% tolerance ) are confirmed to be exactly the same.

I am completely stumped and have know idea what would be causing such behavior. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thank you!!

Sorin
Sorin Popa
 
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Re: Wien bridge oscillator, diode stabilized, inconsistent a

Postby pebe » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:20 pm

Can I assume that “The SMD version of the circuit” means the PCB version – as distinct from a breadboard?

It appears your problem is that the forward voltage of the BAS16 is lower than the 1N4148 for a given forward current.

The main negative feedback path around the op-amp is obtained by R18 and R30. That is not enough to keep the output stable so as the output voltage increases above a value determined by the two diodes, R17 comes into play to increase the feedback. With only a couple volts across R17, the current through it and the diodes will be less than 10µA.

The datasheets for the two diode types do not give the forward voltages for a current as low as that, but at 100µA the Vf for the 1N4148 is given as 0.6V whereas the Vf for the BAS16 is 0.5V. So the BAS16 starts ‘to bite’ at a lower output voltage than the 1N4148, and the output will be lower. It would be interesting to know whether increasing R18 to 22K or 27K (to increase the current through R30) would even things up a bit.
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Re: Wien bridge oscillator, diode stabilized, inconsistent a

Postby Sorin Popa » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:03 am

Thank you for your input. I did some more tests today and below is what I found out. Basically, the punch line is that Wien bridge oscillators are apparently horribly unstable in terms of voltage, that or my breadboards are haunted...

Firstly, C9 was never included in any of these measurements/circuits, I soldered it off my PCB to test this circuit ..

Secondly, what do mean by R30?

Although my original question was regarding my breadboard (BB) vs PCB I decided to eliminate all the variables and breadboard a whole new oscillator from scratch. I even took the BAS16 SMD diodes and mounted them on break outboards.

As you can see from the next two pictures, the same circuit, made with exactly the same through hole components (and the LMV751 on a breakout board), acts relatively the same using BAS16 or 1N4148 diodes. This is surprising, since they are what I thought would have the largest impact on the amplitude, since they are what cut it off technically. The only observable difference is that the BAS16 are quicker to ramp up.


New breadboard with BAS16


New BB with 1N4148

As you can see, both these breadboards give me much higher Vpp (1.2V) than my original BB but not as high as the PCB (1.8V)

The next picture is old BB that was giving issues (posted again to appease Nyquist and the rest of you ;)


Old BB with 1N4148

The old BB was measured again with another LMV751 chip and it acted the same as before (Vpp=680), furthermore, the LMV751 chip from the old BB was put on the new BB and the new BB acted the same (Vpp=1.2).

At this point I had two IDENTICAL BB, checked over 3 times by myself, as well as a lab tech with 30+ years of experience at Phillips and neither of us could explain the readings we observed..the only physical difference was that one BB was slightly smaller than the other, and a slightly different shade of white !!

However, touching the components here and there, I noticed that if I touch either side of the 200k resistor, the amplitude of the osculations increased dramatically (~2Vpp). This was replicated on both the old and new BBs. Assuming this was my stray capacitance, I added a 3nF capacitor from the node between D2 and R17 to ground and this confirmed my belief. The cap increased the amplitude of the oscillations.

To see if this was the cause of the increase on my PCB (since I have a large ground plane under my oscillator circuit) I measured the capacitance from that node to ground and got a reading of 3pF... no dice!

I gave up at this point, and while touching the circuit some more, I realized that touching the ceramic part of C14 slowly (~10mV per sec) kills the signal while touching the ceramic part of C13 increases the signal. This turned out to be due not to my capacitance but due to temperature.. Apparently the 1% through hole capacitors I bought are garbage at Temp sensitivity and change their capacitance even from the heat of ones finger..

Long story short, unless any of you have something to add that I missed (I really really hope you do!!) let this be word of caution for those trying to get a predictable amplitudes from a diode controlled wien bridge..

Now, onto my actual question, how to deal with this, since the rest of my PCB cant be changed and was designed for an output around 600mVpp (based on the old BB)...

One idea I had, was to use a shotkey diode since it has the same footprint and should technically cut out the oscillations quicker, since they have a smaller forward voltage.

Another was to use thermistors, however I doubt the tiny amount of current this thing drives will heat it up significantly.

Basically, I need to generate a sine wave that has a constant amplitude over time, and which cannot ever go above 600mVpp. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good voltage throttle circuit, or where I can start looking?

Also, since the wien bridge seems to be pretty rubbish in the reliability sector, what other oscillator designs would you recommend? I dont necessarily need to run at 20kHz, I can probably go up to 100k, so maybe a wien bridge using a watch crystal would be a solution.

Another is to output the clock signal from my ATtiny45 micro controller and lowpass filter that into a sine wave, would that work?

What do you think of those solutions?

Thank you again for all your help, and even if this never gets figured out completely, hopefully it will be useful for anyone trying make a signal generator this in the future...
Sorin Popa
 
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Re: Wien bridge oscillator, diode stabilized, inconsistent a

Postby pebe » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:38 am

I cannot see any pictures. Have I missed something?

Thank you for your input. I did some more tests today and below is what I found out. Basically, the punch line is that Wien bridge oscillators are apparently horribly unstable in terms of voltage, that or my breadboards are haunted...

The Wien bridge oscillator is not inherently unstable. It is the way you are controlling amplitude that is at fault. You are trying to apply 300mV peak to a diode in series with a 200KΩ resistor – trying to predict the result is delving into the unspecified and unknown characteristics of the diode.

Incidentally, startup time is a function of the 'Q' of the circuit - the longer the time, the higher the Q and the lower the distortion.

Secondly, what do mean by R30?

Sorry, I should have said R17

However, touching the components here and there, I noticed that if I touch either side of the 200k resistor, the amplitude of the osculations increased dramatically (~2Vpp). This was replicated on both the old and new BBs. Assuming this was my stray capacitance, I added a 3nF capacitor from the node between D2 and R17 to ground and this confirmed my belief. The cap increased the amplitude of the oscillations.

Touching any part of the circuit by hand will add resistance, or capacity, or hum and will affect its performance. Adding the 3nF cap has made the feedback frequency-conscious.

Basically, I need to generate a sine wave that has a constant amplitude over time, and which cannot ever go above 600mVpp. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good voltage throttle circuit, or where I can start looking?

Here is a circuit that uses diodes in a different feedback arrangement.

http://www.discovercircuits.com/Andy/we ... llator.htm

The second op-amp is only there to get a half-rail voltage.

You should be able to use a reduced supply voltage for the op-amp you are using. It gives 2Vpp and you only need 600mVpp, so you can reduce the output with a potential divider.

Also, since the wien bridge seems to be pretty rubbish in the reliability sector, what other oscillator designs would you recommend? I dont necessarily need to run at 20kHz, I can probably go up to 100k, so maybe a wien bridge using a watch crystal would be a solution.

As I said, there’s nothing ‘rubbish’ about a Wien bridge oscillator, but it is a type of RC phase shift oscillator, so you cannot use a watch crystal.

Another is to output the clock signal from my ATtiny45 micro controller and lowpass filter that into a sine wave, would that work?

Yes. You could use your op-amp to make an active bandpass filter.

I hope that helps.
pebe
 
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Re: Wien bridge oscillator, diode stabilized, inconsistent a

Postby Sorin Popa » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:18 am

Thank you so much for your detailed response!

The pictures were missing, I messed up the image tags. Here they are again.

Image
New breadboard with BAS16

Image
New BB with 1N4148

Image
Old BB with 1N4148

Regarding you solution, if I try to increase the current through the diodes, than I need to decrease both R17 and R18 and R30 to 20k, 2.1k and 1k for example in order to keep the ratio (and gain) the same and ensure it oscillates ? Correct?

Also would using shotkey diodes, that have a lower forward voltage also help? I realize this circuit needs to be redesigned overall, and ill take a look at your suggestion, but for now i need a solution that would help this PCB work so I can get some test data..

Thanks again!
Sorin Popa
 
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Re: Wien bridge oscillator, diode stabilized, inconsistent a

Postby pebe » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:08 am

Without redesigning your board, try the values in the link I gave you,

Make R39 = 10K, R18 = 22k, and R17 = 100K.
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